KOF XIII General Discussion/Rant Thread

[pop_squally]

valid points by all but i think calling my post ridiculous is a bit OTT

the message i was trying to get across is that their is a big difference between loyal paying customers and die hard fans or for a better word "fanatics".
a loyal customer is only loyal providing that he or she is satisfied with the goods while a fan is loyal to the point of even disregarding anybody elses view or opinion of the product.
die hard michael jackson fans and supporters of shit football teams who pay for season tickets will know what i am talking about.

im not saying everybody who likes king of fighters should buy kof 13 and rinse it in the arcades even if they dont like the game or prefer the older ones because as a customer you would do what is best for you.
but if your a TRUE SNK FAN then you support the franchise.

by fan i mean owning a neo geo and the entire games catalogue, owning the neo geo cd and putting up with those loading times,owning the console conversions going way back to the megadrive, playing all their releases in the arcades., attending or participating the 94 and 95 tournaments that were held in oxford street, remembered the cosplay competition seeing gunsmiths robert and andres' terry lose to a fat clark, remembered the snk uk boss mr yamahata get battered on samurai showdown 2, remembered ryan beating the kof 94 and 95 champion by rolling through chins' super and killing with clarks super grab in the 96 tournament, buying the monthly snk magazine that came with the free poster even if you couldnt read japanese, playing kof music loud in your car, collecting the official king of fighters comics and the japanese fancomics, participating and attending recent/future tournaments, writing or drawing fanfics and introducing new people to the game.

anyways back to the topic.

[Toxic Avanger]

mate why i shouldnt blame snkp for those bugs,glitches,infinites? Ok they fixed something (ex. King's bug) but then ? they just kept the same shit as before .. Vice,Ralf,Hwa,Iori,Mature,Takuma Ex,Goro Ex ... c'on... they actually didnt give a fuck about those loc tests...

Loketest do serve different purposes for a company from management type of view. Most of the bugs discovered when SNK did loke test to "check for bugs" got fixed; but for about almost half of the loke test the main purpose was to check how would the machines would do from a financial point of view (credit per day, things like those), so they weren't being "tracked" every second by staff to see if something wrong went on, but instead they only checked how many credits they had at the start and the end of the day.

Most of the bugs "found" on those "testing" beta test got fixed in the final version (I could paste you a huge list (much bigger than the amount of current existing bugs), like some characters throw escapes being unescapable). The well known Vice bug happened on a beta test where SNK wasn't tracking mistakes, and I only recall it happening once or twice through the betas (and they weren't even recording data on those betas); so even though it got known quite well through the internet, word of it didn't reached SNK's hears, specially since they where working at 130% tuning up details and planning the future of the game at the time.

Of course there are exceptions but look at 98um. Why didn't the 98 fans like it? Why are they still playing 98? a) because 98 doesn't have Krauser or cancel combos. b) 98 can be played online (in some countries).

It's pretty clear that in vanilla 98 there are like 5 characters that can easily subdue the whole cast. However is also pretty clear that the game is considered balanced by it's populace; the cause of that is that pretty much every recurrent 98' player has in some way of another "evaluated" what the lower tiers can do and what the top tiers could do instinctively and said to himself "hey, the difference isn't to bad", and thus accepted the game with everything that's included on it.

Now, what happened in 98UM is that the game introduced new tweaks to the characters along with new characters which in the end, it quickly became clear that the new top tiers just had too much options and had to much sauce going compared to the old top tiers; so most of the seasoned players that have honed their skills for virtually 10 years found themselves in this "update" where they hard worked skills where almost totally shun down due to tier difference. So in turn they quickly said "fuck it" and went back to the less broken 98'.

02UM has a whole lot of power bombs sitting right there underused because the "famous" broken characters are too recurrent. So even if you remove or tweak K', Nameless & Kasumi you are still going to find an annoyance factor here and there. I do like better the "balance" of 02um than the vanilla game (bottom feeders are just so much more fun to use and main in your team, XIII also has a positive side when it comes to this one).

Shit I'm late for work

Today I'm skipping <- I should really get my ASCII kita thing straight.

[Gunsmith]

This debate inspired me to post a new article on the main page, let me know what you think.

Ta still makes me think players are lazy.

'Fan' is short for fanatic, so any discussion about what they do or should do is ridiculous
They do go out and buy shit without thinking etc.

[fiol]

mate why i shouldnt blame snkp for those bugs,glitches,infinites? Ok they fixed something (ex. King's bug) but then ? they just kept the same shit as before .. Vice,Ralf,Hwa,Iori,Mature,Takuma Ex,Goro Ex ... c'on... they actually didnt give a fuck about those loc tests...

Loketest do serve different purposes for a company from management type of view. Most of the bugs discovered when SNK did loke test to "check for bugs" got fixed; but for about almost half of the loke test the main purpose was to check how would the machines would do from a financial point of view (credit per day, things like those), so they weren't being "tracked" every second by staff to see if something wrong went on, but instead they only checked how many credits they had at the start and the end of the day.

Most of the bugs "found" on those "testing" beta test got fixed in the final version (I could paste you a huge list (much bigger than the amount of current existing bugs), like some characters throw escapes being unescapable). The well known Vice bug happened on a beta test where SNK wasn't tracking mistakes, and I only recall it happening once or twice through the betas (and they weren't even recording data on those betas); so even though it got known quite well through the internet, word of it didn't reached SNK's hears, specially since they where working at 130% tuning up details and planning the future of the game at the time.

well if that was the reason in the first place for those lok tests, ok..nothing to add... but still i clearly remember the vice's bug popped out pretty soon at a loktest and paste on youtube..anyway i can see your point here [bold].
as i said i do like everything the game is offering (i just loved the latest Taiwanese vids) (well i cant play it right now since there is no cab in Italy xD but wth..if next year shanghai still have it... ) , but i m just a bit too worried about the future... ok xiii is going to "Duelling the Kof", which is a really nice thing but after that? what's gonna happen?


EDIT:
about the article on the website..just my 2cents

This year, they have given up taking risks. Same old system, with a couple of system features that don’t really seem that important, but will reward better players. Will the fans be happy? Or will SNKP still lose?

Interestingly, had I been asked in 1996, I probably would have said “no” to rolls. Now, I can’t live without them. Thank you SNK, for trying to evolve, and not leaving me to settle with some fireball+dragon gameplay. It’s easy, but… kinda boring, don’t you think?

SNKP is taking a lot of flak at the moment for the unpatched state of XIII, but I’m not that sure they deserve it. They took risks, they got burned, and now, with a limited budget and a new president that doesn’t see profit in arcades, who knows how much longer they will last? Why don’t we wait and see the console version, before damning them all to hell…

why you say such a thing? I mean the new system features are quite important i think, EX/NEOMAX give the name something new,something deeper than just standard combos/bc combos, you can create something different from what the past kofs had to offer.. in my opinion those new, small, features are well made (bugs aside).

thats true, but the switch screen wasnt that bad either, the roll is the perfect way to evade attacks, still i think the switch mode was good as much as the roll (i was hoping they would have re-introduced this feature in xiii xD)

As i said, to me SNK did a FANTASTIC job on XIII, they did what most of the fans wanted they to do.. xii juggles,2k2 bc mode, exs,neomax, more characters, more moves, endings, a story line, two bossess.. i cannot blame them for the game itself (bugs aside).. imo the did their best and they did well... now it's all about the community (in regards to the arcades now, and console (offline & online) later on)

[Gunsmith]

why you say such a thing? I mean the new system features are quite important i think, EX/NEOMAX give the name something new,something deeper than just standard combos/bc combos, you can create something different from what the past kofs had to offer.. in my opinion those new, small, features are well made (bugs aside).

I said it because it's TRUE. XII was going to be the start of a new system. However, XIII changed back to 2k2um style. NeoMax/EX is not really new. Critical Clash is NEW.

thats true, but the switch screen wasnt that bad either, the roll is the perfect way to evade attacks, still i think the switch mode was good as much as the roll (i was hoping they would have re-introduced this feature in xiii xD)

Remember 98UM has this!

As i said, to me SNK did a FANTASTIC job on XIII, they did what most of the fans wanted they to do.. xii juggles,2k2 bc mode, exs,neomax, more characters, more moves, endings, a story line, two bossess.. i cannot blame them for the game itself (bugs aside).. imo the did their best and they did well... now it's all about the community (in regards to the arcades now, and console (offline & online) later on)

They have done their best, but if people don't buy it, it's a fail. This is why I need to say something when people start being unfair to SNK. If I don't, people read and believe, and don't buy.

I think it will be fine as long as we have patches and good online matches. Go go SNK!!

[pop_squally]

nonas art for the game was excellent too

[fiol]

why you say such a thing? I mean the new system features are quite important i think, EX/NEOMAX give the name something new,something deeper than just standard combos/bc combos, you can create something different from what the past kofs had to offer.. in my opinion those new, small, features are well made (bugs aside).

I said it because it's TRUE. XII was going to be the start of a new system. However, XIII changed back to 2k2um style. NeoMax/EX is not really new. Critical Clash is NEW.

thats true, but the switch screen wasnt that bad either, the roll is the perfect way to evade attacks, still i think the switch mode was good as much as the roll (i was hoping they would have re-introduced this feature in xiii xD)

Remember 98UM has this!

As i said, to me SNK did a FANTASTIC job on XIII, they did what most of the fans wanted they to do.. xii juggles,2k2 bc mode, exs,neomax, more characters, more moves, endings, a story line, two bossess.. i cannot blame them for the game itself (bugs aside).. imo the did their best and they did well... now it's all about the community (in regards to the arcades now, and console (offline & online) later on)

They have done their best, but if people don't buy it, it's a fail. This is why I need to say something when people start being unfair to SNK. If I don't, people read and believe, and don't buy.

I think it will be fine as long as we have patches and good online matches. Go go SNK!!

about kofxii system...i give u that...that was indeed a re-bith (no joke inside) (a good one in my opinion)..
yeah i do remember 98um (well 98og had the switch screen option too)..well..i dont play that game (i own the ps2 edition but i dont like it)
about ur third poit... yeah..GO GO SNK!!!

[Tel]

Finally got the chance to try the game today, Thanks to Fat Cat Lim for the directions, managed to find my way to the arcade without too much trouble.

Being away from competitions since XI made me VERY rusty, and I had trouble pulling even basic combos out on my first try. I didn't seem to have that problem when playing the 2k2UM cabinet so first impression is the cancel timings for a lot of moves are different. It's not necessarily harder, easier or faster, just the cancelable frame timings are different with each character.

But after a few rounds here's what I have to say about the control system:
- It's relatively simple to motion, but you have to be fairly accurate. I'm quite sloppy in motioning, so stuff like Shen's Stand C > f+B > ,f+C ended up being +C when I got lazy (which landed me in a lot of trouble). Had no problems pulling off Ash's Neo Max, but for some reason couldn't pull Clark's as well. But overall, stuff that I wanted to get out were mostly coming out.
- Canceling into HD mode is much easier than 2k2. I was never good with MAX mode combos, but canceling something like standing C > f+B > BC > stand C is pretty easy to get the hang of.
- Shortcuts still work. I motion Iori's stand C > f+A > ,B+C like how I do it in 2k2, and it comes out without flaw. I'm too slow to be able to pull the same thing for Leona, so what I normally do is stand C/D > +B > +C. Again, this works flawlessly.
- From what I notice, the cancel frames for some moves are tighter. Ironically I had problems canceling Terry's close C 2nd hit, when I picked him first as a fallback in case I had trouble with the game mechanics. I know Ash can link crouch B into b+B then ,qcf+K like in 2k3, but I couldn't for the life of me get the timing right.
- Some light combo timings are much easier, like Leona's d+B > d+A > Moon Slasher, while some hard combo timings are more difficult, like Kyo's far C into +D (shorter cancelable frame window).
- Drive cancels are a little too easy that they come out by accident often, but I suppose that's just my sloppy motioning.

I didn't challenge anyone, but got challenged about 4 times I think. Lost two matches, won another two. No offense to Singaporeans, but those guys are really tier and glitch whoring. Everyone either had Takuma, Mature, Betsy and/or K' in their team. Betsy's anywhere juggles in the corner is pretty sick shit, as is getting juggled repeatedly by Takuma's EX corner combo. Those guys aren't shy to win with Mature's infinite either Haven't seen that kind of abuse since 2k and 2k1. Other than that however, I did get some much-needed practice however, seeing as I couldn't pull even K's standard BnB combo in XIII (couldn't time the +K after the Second Shell).

Playing against the CPU is interesting, although the AI is quite stupid (a big shame considering XI on level 8). The in-game challenges are fun for you to practice on, since you get stock or HD gauge for doing them. Failed to break through the 2.5 million points needed to fight Saiki and Dark Ash on my first run, but beat the game on my second try without any major problems. I recorded the whole Ash outtro and ending sequence. If someone wants it, I'll upload it to YouTube. Although for some reason after that, I kept losing to Dark Ash (Magaki fireball spam anyone?), when on my first encounter with him, I practically trashed him with Ash.

I roulette one character, so managed to try quite a number of them. In terms of sheer cheapness, K' and Betsy take the crown (couldn't abuse Raiden well enough). Shen is probably going to be my main, and Ash once I get the hang of him again. Some like Iori, Maxima, King, Joe, Leona, Chin and Kensou were really fun to relearn. I didn't get to try were Andy, Athena, Hwa Jai, Kula, Yuri and Ryo. All in all, I had a lot of fun, but I'm disappointed how much potential abuse there is for the high tiers. I know damned well what that K' and Betsy user's going to do, but trying to nail them out of it is a different question altogether.

[PenPen]

I'm just lamenting the fact that I actually lost soundly (repeatedly) to a guy who uses Andy, Terry and Takuma and does nothing but throw fireballs at long range. It's frustrating because I knew that I'm a much better player than him technically. I guess he is just very good at timing and anticipation.

Or maybe I'm too old and lack practice and is just trying to rationalize my most disappointing losses. D:

[Kane317]

I'm just lamenting the fact that I actually lost soundly (repeatedly) to a guy who uses Andy, Terry and Takuma and does nothing but throw fireballs at long range. It's frustrating because I knew that I'm a much better player than him technically. I guess he is just very good at timing and anticipation.

Or maybe I'm too old and lack practice and is just trying to rationalize my most disappointing losses.

...and on that note, not to shift this thread completely; Anyone feel that they're getting old and their reflexes aren't what they used to be? Particularly the older crowd like Gunny and myself? I remember being pretty sharp in 2000 still but fast forward 10 years and I *know* I'm not what I used to be and have to work extra hard to keep up.

Lols.

[Gunsmith]

As I've gotten older I've become more calm and better with combos. Reaction time has gotten worse but prediction is better to compensate. Also, I now drink lots of coffee while gaming, which scrambles everything up again

[Tel]

I'm just lamenting the fact that I actually lost soundly (repeatedly) to a guy who uses Andy, Terry and Takuma and does nothing but throw fireballs at long range. It's frustrating because I knew that I'm a much better player than him technically. I guess he is just very good at timing and anticipation.

Or maybe I'm too old and lack practice and is just trying to rationalize my most disappointing losses.

...and on that note, not to shift this thread completely; Anyone feel that they're getting old and their reflexes aren't what they used to be? Particularly the older crowd like Gunny and myself? I remember being pretty sharp in 2000 still but fast forward 10 years and I *know* I'm not what I used to be and have to work extra hard to keep up.

Lols.

I'm definitely out of practice, but I don't feel I'm actually getting worse. I was never an amazing player to begin with, so instead of going for fancy MAX mode combos, I stuck with simple stuff that worked. Plus I either learnt to pull shortcuts for a chain, or don't bother trying to pull it off in an actual match altogether. The problem is, I'll never be a really good player either because I've no intention to try and push myself out of my own limitations, not when the arcade scene here is all but dead.

@penpen: I only got to play 13 last week, and most of the player's weren't great. But the amount of fireball whoring with K' and Takuma got annoying fast. Takuma I could still deal with, as most players are too obsessed with trying to land his corner free EX Hien Shippu Kyaku than to actually play him properly. K' however, is a plain bitch, and even crappy players can be hard to beat when he starts spamming fireballs.

@Gunsmith: I took a couple of pictures of the arcade location in Singapore. Want me to email them to you? I also managed to record the game's full ending sequence after beating Evil Ash, and Ash's ending. Anyone wants it up on YouTube?

[Max]

I also managed to record the game's full ending sequence after beating Evil Ash, and Ash's ending. Anyone wants it up on YouTube?

I do! I DO!

[Kane317]

As I've gotten older I've become more calm and better with combos. Reaction time has gotten worse but prediction is better to compensate. Also, I now drink lots of coffee while gaming, which scrambles everything up again

Actually, I am calmer about my combos too, it's just I feel like I need more "prepping" before I go for a combo ("ok, I have 2 stocks, 1 cancel, I'll go for this!") but more times than not, you never really get the opportunity when playing competitive players.

[Tel]

I also managed to record the game's full ending sequence after beating Evil Ash, and Ash's ending. Anyone wants it up on YouTube?

I do! I DO!

Your wish is my command.