Ramon (XI)

[hebretto]

I played the game today and didn't realise (or remember?) Ramon's moves has changed ...

* Standing C -> + B -> + C -> run Crouching C -> + B no longer combos (practically). I say practically in that in game it would be hard for the 2nd + B to combo (I managed to get it by hitting the character from behind which has more hitboxes). You will have to skip the + B and just go with the special or DM (qcb + A or ,hcf + B) ... not sure if this applies to everyone but . Crouching D after the + C no longer works cause the feint is laggy compared to 2002/NW now

* + B/D Ramon will run to wall like usual and will do a wall jump and you can do anything after that A to E would be the normal in air attacks. + A/B/C/D/E etc will give you the "special move" effect etc

2002 > XI Ramon

[SonicTempest]

Uh, so I see Ramon ranked at E tier for most tier lists. heb already mentioned that his +C got lagged up, and I've heard that his down D doesn't cancel anymore (although I might be wrong about that).

What exactly about him makes him so bad that he gets knocked down to bottom tier?

[Tel]

I can't see why Ramon is bottom tier. I like using him in XI, and he feels very responsive compared with 2k2/NW. Jump C>Stand C>df+B>hcf+C is extremely easy to chain now.

But he does have some tone downs. +K no longer usable in combos, and +K > +any at wall is no longer unblockable, so it's not a very good move anymore. On the other hand, if you don't motion a fallowup when he runs back to the wall, Ramon no longer stumbles, but instead jumps off it, which allows you to cancel into an air attack.

[~!T.T!~]

if you're wondering why he's listed as bottom tier, i guess it's mainly because of the tone-downs he's had from 2k2 and the fact that he's one of the more complicated characters to use effectively. I mean at first i didnt think he belonged there either, but looking at what other characters have (*ahem* kula/gato/oswald), I guess it sorta makes sense

[Iie-Kyo]

Yeah, Ramon this year doesn't have the "omgwtf" factor he did in 2k2. In 2k2 he used to be all over the place throwing out random ass moves that were REALLY hard to read. In XI he's a lot slower, and other than the "new" followups to his Tiger Load, doesn't have that many options. He no longer has an effective high-low mixup between his D, + C, and + K overhead. His jump CD doesn't seem to be as effective air to air. C seems to have been slowed down, same with the + B.

Basically what gave Ramon his speed was taken out in place for - well - nothing really. :-(

[flipONE]

why hasn't anyone tried to play Ramon more instead of just comparing him to his 2k2 version. Sure he may have been nerfed somewhat, but so was DuoLon and any other character that was uber toptier in previous KoF games.

I stuck Ramon on my team today just to see what he was like to play, and I'd have to say he's just a different character in this one.

it's all about +K now. Use it to play terrible mind games with Ramon. Mix up between using his throw follow up and no followup w/ j.D. His bread and butter (I don't know if it's the same) works as j.D, st.C, +B, +A. After +B you can also do a +P to combo in his throw. If your opponent blocks the +B or even the st.C you can cancel into +K and mix'em up into a free throw.

Was wondering if anyone found a better combo into Ramon's Rolling Sobat. If that can be mastered than Ramon should at least gain a +1 for being a leader, considering that if he nails someone with Rolling Sobat its free DM/LDM.

I personally think his "WTF" factor is still there (considering I made a good friend of mine say WTF after a blocked bread and butter into +K). It's just different. With the ability to bounce off the wall with +K, Ramon has a lot more mobility than other characters. With the follow ups off of +K, Ramon has seemingly "Random" options to throw out there. In my opinion it seems that his "omgwtf" factor is based on the fact that the followups off of +K can be option selected depending on the opponents position on the ground.

[Derrace]

hmm, not sure if it was mentioned... but you can still use his C in his combo.

Jump C/D, Stand C, C, Stand C, B, A.

Jump C/D, Stand C, C, Stand C, Rush DM (not sure if it links after B)

[Derrace]

hmm, not sure if it was mentioned... but you can still use his C in his combo.

Jump C/D, Stand C, C, Crouch C, B, A.

Jump C/D, Stand C, C, Crouch C, Rush DM (not sure if it links after B)

Edit: typo, the Stand C was meant to be Crouching C.

[frionel]

Or just :

C, B, C, cr C, A

it's one of my b'n'b with ramon this year


Can someone explain how his K works now... cause I don't really when you can apply a variation.... maybe just a timming problem... but I still don't know all of his possibilities

[flipONE]

Are you talking about his +K frionel? The move where he runs up to the wall and jumps? Right when he hits the wall is when you have to be completing the follow up move. The timing is a little strict as well.

Ok so is it confirmed that st.C, +B, +C, d.C is his chain now?

I was wondering if anyone can confirm if this will hit:

j.D, st.C, +B, +C, d.C, +A, +A, dd+P xx RanbuDM DC LDM

also I was wondering how does Ramons LDM work?

In a video I saw, he just did three slams of his +P. In the guide book I have (woot friend found the entire thing) it lists the follow ups and whatnot but I can't read japanese.

[flipONE]

Ok got to do some actual testing today.

I only landed st.C, +B, +C, d.C once.

I tried doing the +C the instant the +B hit. A friend of mine suggested that maybe I have to wait for the +B to move Ramon a little closer in before I try to cancel and land d.C.

Also has anyone confirmed if , + K works for his autocombo DM? I'm just not used to doing , motions (especially after d,d+P after +Kx2).

Also I was wondering when you actually super cancel after the set it up smack, and can you combo from it? or maybe even cancel the move w/ +C?

basically after all these questions I have one big theoretical combo to see if it works:

j.D, st.C, +B, +C, d.C, +K, +K, dd+P, +C, st.C, +B, +C, d.C, +C.

[Iie-Kyo]

I guess I'll list his "nerfings" in XI, cos he got hit with the nerfstick pretty hard:

- Jump CD has lower air to air priority, speed is slower - possibly due to its animation change.
- His other jump normals were changed animation wise - the hitboxes for these were modified, and I don't think he received much of a benefit from these modifications.
- + C's speed is slower. Mixups with this move aren't as effective.
- + B's speed is slower and is no longer an overhead. Its only use now is to stuff rolls and in combos.
- + A and the "diving" followup to his + K/RDP + K have been reduced in priority.
- D cannot be cancelled anymore and is much laggier.
- Close C is laggier and has had its animation changed.
- A lot of his special moves have slower startup.

In return for this, he has gotten the following:
- Possible normal followups to his + K.
- A new + E move that takes a long time to startup, has no range.

I don't think his + K followup options are as great as they seem. Sure now you can select what he does once he hits the wall, but IMO this is no different than what you could do in the previous years - a flying elbow, a flying unblockable "hit-based" throw, or just a nosedive if you think the opponent's going to try to evade it. Basically, the decision of which move to do was made at the initial execution of the Tiger Load in 2k2, rather than once he hits the wall, and IMO the "options" you had in 2k2 were much better (and higher priority, not as nerfed, etc.) than his XI options.

His normal followups aren't too useful (IMO) because of the HUGE length of the KoF XI arena. If you run at the wall, you're gonna end up too far away to hit decently with any of his normals (most of which were nerfed too). This leaves you with his special moves, and as I stated before, the only two things that changed about them was *when* you executed them and how much priority these moves have/had.

I don't think he was broken in 2k2 compared to a lot of the "upper" tiers, and he was certainly no Duo Lon that desperately needed to be nerfed. Horribly underplayed in my area too and in many tournies too.

I don't think he deserves an E rank, but he does seem to be the weak link in my team. I can't seem to get much mileage out of his Tiger Load followups because of The Unholy Three having so many ways to stuff my attempts at being random.

Hmm...

[flipONE]

I are you sure about d.D not being cancelable? I'm pretty sure I remember myself accidently swinging to +K and Ramon ran his ass over to the wall, but I could be wrong and just canceled d.C w/o looking.

//--
Just watched a match video... Ramon does not need his +C for his chain combo. I'm not sure what the button is exactly but it looks like the combo comes out like this:

j.C, st.C, d.C, +B, +A.

I didn't notice a +C cancel in the video but it might just be there.
--// I'm wrong I slowed the vid down, there is a +C.

Iie: I will admit that most of the nerfs you've listed are true. However, Jump CD SHOULDN'T be used as air to air for Ramon this year. +C is a different kind of mix up. I haven't noticed a problem his +P follow up after +K. I've grabbed people out of many specials and normal moves. I think that Ramon shouldn't be knocked so low on the tier list. I think that his +K is a great move to bounce around the stage with (provided that you at least hit the wall), especially for longer range mind games.

Well thats all my mind can take right now for ranting on KoF XI. I'll do some more testing in a couple days so I can master my newest/favorite addition to my team.

[Zero]

I'm not a Ramon player but I enjoy playing him.

f+A is a overhead. It can combo.

d,d+A in +K string can be cancel to special move. I usually do +A.

+E is a new special move where he grabbed your opponent and sending them running to the wall just like Shermie's HSDM from KOF2002. I don't know if +K -> , + E is guaranteed after +E.

BnB: st.C, +B, +C, cr.C, +A.

[flipONE]

Ok, so I got some 2k2 to practice on, and I still am having problems with:

st.C, +B, +C, d.C, +A.

I can land the first three hits in the corner, but only in the corner, I don't see how u can run up to do the d.C, so I'm just gonna stick to st.C, +B.