:: orochinagi

I'm not sure where I would be putting this, so I'll just throw it here as this discussion is pretty much about all the KOFs.

Say for example you knocked an opponent to the ground. What would you generally follow with afterwards (if you're close to them)? I'm not saying like "OMG I ONLY DO THIS" as I'm sure that there's more to wakeup games.

Here's a few options.

1. Overhead
Since the opponent is prone to blocking low when they wake up, you can do an overhead attack to hit them. And maybe in the case of 2k2 (and you're l33t), overhead BC cancel into meaty combo. Also if I'm correct, in the case of Ryo if the timing is a little off, they can roll forward to escape your f+A overhead chop, and hit you from behind.

2. Low attack/sweep
This is assuming that your opponent is thinking (double assumption ) you will do an overhead attack, and block normally. Then you do a low B which may chain into something else, or simply a sweep to give your opponent some mind games again.

3. Grab
If your character has a grab move you just grab them when they get up. I personally don't use this often (I don't use grapplers), but actually against a Clark player I usually get grabbed, because if you jump he's probably doing a close C, and if you don't he'll SAB you. And this can repeat until you get broken out of their effective range.

4. Throws
Similar to above, just that I'm not grasping the timing very well - a viable option, but it can be breakable.

5. Jump attack/Hop attack
Probably the worst IMHO, you're very likely to get -ed straight to your guy's butt. I don't think it's a very good option, unless you're basically timing your opponent getting up, and immediately delivering a hop A/B right when they stand straight, forcing them to block and pressure more.

6. Do nothing/Block
It's great against opponents who are prone, have dps that they think are abusable (eg. Ryo, Iori). They get up, assume you'll do something, and try to you. Instead you block, and then they get down for a meaty combo. For additional safety, you can block low, since they may start off with a sweep. I don't see many guys getting up and trying to do an overhead move, since they're usually slower and the ball is in your hands.

What about sticking out the active frames of a meaty attack (not necessary overhead/low/jump) as they get up?

SonicTempest wrote:What about sticking out the active frames of a meaty attack (not necessary overhead/low/jump) as they get up?

Yeah, I knew I'd miss out a few. Stuff like Clark's close C is pretty good at this, where if you try to jump you get hit by the close C and you may get a nice SAB.

This I think will assume the opponent in the blocking position, where they can guard break CD you and get out . Of course, there's always mixing things up by a little.

Safe jumps- If you're familiar with the speed of the other character's uppercut, its very possible to time a wake up jump/hop attack where if the opponent doesn't uppercut, he gets hit, and if he does uppercut, you land and block before the first hit on his uppercut is fully extended. Obviously, its easier against character's who's uppercuts have slow start ups (e.g., K') than those with fast start ups (e.g., Kula). Dave Sirlin has a video demonstrating how to do this in ST that I can dig up if anyone wants. Works the same way in KOF.

Cross ups- Pretty standard way to jump in and avoid being uppercuted. Doesn't always works, since sometimes the game automatically helps the uppercutter switch sides.

Ambigious roll- Works better with some characters than others. Staple strategy for Iori and Adel in XI since they have hard knockdowns. Basically you do a roll in from a distance where its ambigious as to whether you end up in front or behind, timing it so that your roll ends just as the opponent gets up and has a milisecond to decide whether to block left or right.

AcidicEnema wrote:Safe jumps- If you're familiar with the speed of the other character's uppercut, its very possible to time a wake up jump/hop attack where if the opponent doesn't uppercut, he gets hit, and if he does uppercut, you land and block before the first hit on his uppercut is fully extended. Obviously, its easier against character's who's uppercuts have slow start ups (e.g., K') than those with fast start ups (e.g., Kula). Dave Sirlin has a video demonstrating how to do this in ST that I can dig up if anyone wants. Works the same way in KOF.

I love doing this, it's just so good. An additional strategy is to just barely whiff your jump attack on their wakeup and then do a very fast low attack. This in combination with safe jumps above, makes it very hard to block against some characters like Iori, Kyo, Chris, etc.

I also tend to whiff a variety of things before the opponent is waking up, and then make my action (or usually no action) when the opponent actually gets up. An example would be whiffing a lot of jabs, or even a normal that has bad recovery, just before a waking up Ryo, who will probably try to there. You can be more creative by whiffing sweeps, overheads, etc.

Another trick I use, especially in kof2k2, is to whiff cancellable low attacks into overheads. This is only under the assumption that the opponent tends to block on their wakeup but pay attention to you...they will probably notice your sweep but will be unable to block the whiff cancelled overhead. For people that don't know, if a normal is blocked and you cancel into an overhead command attack, the overhead property is lost. This is not true if you whiff cancel the normal. This is pretty nasty with Kim in kof2k2...whiff cancelling sweeps into f+B into max combo.

Ambiguous roll is definitely good against people who love counter attack on wake up. With Vice I tend to run to the grounded opponent and as soon they wake up I roll behind them and perform x2 DM, it's almost guarantted to enter if the opponent whiffed a (Kyo, Iori, Ryo) or a grab animation (Daimon, Clark or any other grappler)

For more experienced players the mind game overhead/low with kara cancel also works fine. Vice dD into fA does the trick several times.

Safe jumping is pretty good too, better if your chara has a nice cross up landing attack.

How about chip damage moves when enemy has no bars to counter/roll? What's your take?

Vice Vecta wrote: How about chip damage moves when enemy has no bars to counter/roll? What's your take?

I think its fair game (i.e., its not cheap or anything). Anyway its KOF, even if he has no bars to counter roll, if he knows that you're going to try it, he can still roll through the initial hit.

This is when tempo is important. Its waaaaaay smarter to walk forward and backward a bit as he gets up, just outside reversal range, then suddenly do the chip move 1/4 of a second after he's gotten up proper (or walk forward and throw him), rather than just try to meaty him with the chip move (which is too obvious a set up and most people will roll through).