:: orochinagi

Before I start:

It is my intent that this be a *semi*serious discussion. While the odd one-line zinger isn't unwelcome, I hope that this doesn't degrade quickly into a s2pid room LAWL fest. With that said (and this is going to be a bit more pointed than I normally like to be), if you have nothing constructive to contribute, or if you outright fail at trying to be funny, please stay away. Yes, KK, that means you.

So.

Where do porn stars go to retire?

This is the 2nd time this question's popped into my head, and surprise, surprise, both time it's after a trip to Akihabara, Japan. Anyone who's been there, heck, anyone who's been to Japan knows how massive and unavoidable the porn industry is. There's a strange sense of repulsion and arousal seeing barely legal teenagers getting fucked in an array of exotic positions, dressed in fetish costumes and being drowned in a flood of semen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to go on a holier-than-thou-Pr0n-is-EVIL!!!!!! rant. I'm enough of an economist to understand basic supply-and-demand principles, and enough of a liberal to think that, as long as all parties are willing (by that I mean nobody's being kidnapped or held at gunpoint or spied on using mini-cameras to perform in these vids), porn is something that harms no one and is probably essential for the well being of society. While the sheer scale of it in Japan boggles my mind somewhat, I'm not against it on principle.

What I *am* curious about, however, is where the heck these porn stars go to after they've decided "Ok, enough's enough, I've faked enough orgasms on camera". Do they go on to lead normal deskbound jobs? Do they face sexual harassment in their new vocations? Do they walk down the street years after, and find a stranger stop dead in their tracks with an expression on their face saying "I've seen you fuck before"? How does all that feel like?

Do they go on/continue to have normal relationships with men after their careers? Do they ever reveal their past to their future partners? Or are they able to leave the porn industry in the first place because of some rich sugar daddy that wants to keep them exclusive?

What of their friends? How many of them stick with them through their porn star days? Or is it that the only friends they manage to make during the time of their career is with other people in the same line? I'm thinking of the male porn star actor in Love Actually here, who is shy in asking out the chick he's banging furiously away on under the camera. What do the parents of these porn stars think? What do they say when people ask what their kids do?

What got them started on all this craziness in the first place? Gut instinct tells me it's all about the money, but surely not every one of these starlets start out by thinking "If I do this movie I'll be able to afford that LV bag I've wanted for so long~!!!!!". Fame? Prestige? Or just the craving for notoriety?

And finally- am I crazy in thinking there's a worthwhile story to be told under all this?

Coming soon in 2010...Memoirs of a Porn Star

As above, anyone with anything constructive to post, please do so. I'd like to hear your thoughts, but please, spare me the pics.

*Hopes that this thread doesn't lead to the last time I ever try to post a serious thread on ON*

Well, in the sex industry, several people just don't cover one role on it. Corner hookers, Call girls/boys, Karaoke bar girls, Massage parlor attendants, Barber shop "stylists" (like in China), Strip pole dancers and the porno star. Some girls can be porn stars while dancing in the weekends in that hot strip club. Other girls can offer the services (quite expensive) if they already have been in the sleazy celluloid before, etc.

I think here the question to understand "what's life after pr0n/sex industry?" is "what's life before the pr0n/sex industry?". What were the reasons these girls/boys decided to take part of it?

As many can tell, necessity is one of them. Uneducated and talentless yet attractive girls/boys find this industry as their solution to get money using their apperance and/or their sexual skills.

Others, are using the industry as a climbing rope to higher roles. There's a case of a Hong Kong star who started her career as pr0n actress, yet now she's been filming serious movies and been in lots of advertisements all around South China (i don't remember her name, I'll ask my gf to help me out with this). Another example is Jenna Jameson, as she made the voice of Candy Suxxx in GTA Vice City.

And... of course, the people who are there just for the fun of it! Getting laid, cumming a lot, meet lots of people and above that, getting payed? Oh, sign me in!

So, with these premises then it's possible to know what's life after being successful in the sex industry. As PS mentioned, society still can look at them funny due of their sleazy nature: either with sexual interest or disgust.

I think i really need to do some research and do some field research: interviewing some girls/boys who have been in the industry and survived to it.


Oh, and regarding AV in Japan, the AV idols have some sort of "prestige" out there. Some of them (just like Mihiro or Anna Kaneshiro) even make their live blogs public, with lots of attendance. In thsoe places they talk about their normal life and seldom touch any sleazy stuff. Even this girl Anna Kaneshiro filmed a pr0n movie in Europe and was filmed totally how she and her producer arranged everything before a fuck. Was more like a documental of a pr0n actress rather than the chi-cu-bam-bao stereotype movie (in fact, in a scene, she was hella frustrated 'cuz she couldn't handle to get fucked by a huge dick... yes, even filmed so).

I think the reason most people get into porn is because it's easy money. Porn 'stars' are mostly young women and men and surely lack a great deal of real world experience - I'd imagine the lure of all that money is pretty hard to resist at that age. I mean, what's a 19 or 20 year old kid going to gravitate to more - working at a coffee shop while going to college for a 20K a year starting position or making thousands a dollar a week now. And when you're young it's easy to ignore/not consider the ramifications your actions may have down the line.

The problem is that the easy route (or potentially easy at least) is only a temporary fix. With exceptions, I'd say that most porn workers are only in vogue for a very short period of time. Yes, they can make a ton of money during that period but I don't think many have the wisdom or foresight to save or invest said earnings (not to mention the potential hardships the industry may lead to - ie. drug addiction). I doubt porn has an 401K plan for it's stars.

I also don't think that people are wise in using the industry as a stepping stone. Yes, it's certainly possible to achieve success from a start in porn but look at the millions of woman who engage in it and compare their numbers to those that earned outside stardom - the percentage is minuscule. Again, I'm sure people get into porn thinking it will accomplish this but I can't see it as a valid reality - it's about as likely as winning the lottery.

Like PS said, I don't have an issue with porn between consenting adults. But I really can't imagine it's not without damaging effect to it's participants. Exposure to drugs and STD's aside I'd have to imagine the nature and frequency of the acts those people perform or endure has to screw up your mindset somehow (ie. distrust of men, loss of intimacy, lower self worth). I never believe those instances when I hear porn stars say that they're in porn because they love doing these things.

As far as what they do after they lose their porn appeal it's hard to say. I honestly doubt that alot of the workers have the education or job experience to get viable work outside of the field. I'm sure a number of them end up as strippers or prostitutes - those being fields were their 'stardom' might help generate income. But even these fields are just another temporary solution.

I'd also have to think that those performers who attempt to find work outside the industry suffer additional psychological damage via the reception they receive from the general public. Sexual harassment, disdain, and disrespect would only serve to validate any lingering issues the worker may have harbored while in the industry. Between the low income positions available to these workers and the reception from their coworkers I'd think it very hard for post-sex workers to remain out of the industry.

I think a number of the smarter workers turn their attentions toward the production end of porn. I've heard of actresses starting their own companies to produce movies with other people. I suppose that this would allow them to make a living without performing or suffering the stigma porn workers endure outside the industry. Still I'd imagine this route would require both money and insight - surely not something everyone in the industry possesses.

Essentially I'd think that most porn workers are setting themselves up for a life of hardship. The majority aren't going to become celebrities from their work and aren't going to wisely utilize their earnings. When their short stint in the business is over they must find that their options are limited. Being undereducated and unexperienced (professionally speaking) make it very hard for anyone to get by - doing so while under the stigma society has assigned porn workers has to make it that much harder. One can only guess as to the impact on their personal and romantic relationships.

So yeah, this is an interesting topic of conversation. I wonder if the porn workers feel it was worth it once everything is said and done.

A way i can compare the sex industry with is with the model career. This is mostly a temporary career where depends on appearance and performance and as the times goes by, the model/pr0n star is less attractive. The huge difference is the turns of it: While a Model can go on in "acting" or endorsing fashion shows or become host of talk shows, the pr0n star has not many options to go on, just as AW posted.

1. Well it is different in different cultures. I think in China, prostitutes and sex workers are of higher social status than their Western equivalents, so they may not have the same problems as Western pornstars.

2. I have heard many stories of porn stars going on to direct and produce porn movies themselves, just not star in them. There are many roles to play in the production of porn other than the acting.

3. The couple in Love Actually weren't porn stars, they were body doubles shooting a love scene for the actors who didn't want to do it, which is why they could talk during the scene because the cameras would only be focusing on the tits.

4. And I think it's a stereotype and prejudice to believe that people in the porn industry lack little education and low self-esteem. I think that awful smear campaign involving the 60 Minutes interview with Belladonna has really unfortunately painted the porn industry in a bad light. Pornstars aren't exploited/trapped/stupid, for many they are there because they enjoy the sex, and some have college degrees.

I might agree with that. Many girls in Mexico use to work as call girls or strippers to finish their degree. In Guangzhou, many girls in the foreign language college use to work as "translators" for businessmen in the trading fairs. Of course, they do more than translate and even have some fixed quota.

And no, in China ho's are not well seen... not in GZ at least. Here they have to work with some front business like karaoke bars, massage parlors or barber shops. Besides, prostitution here is illegal, but oh well, even the cops can let some hookers do their work nearby the Garden Hotel zone (the unofficial cantonese red light district) by doing some blowjobs (I saw it, actually). And I have never seen any chinese porn magazine or video here. Not from Minaland China at all.

hmm maybe it was some other asian country.

*tries to resuscitate this thread, and with it, the hope for serious discussion on ON*

So anyway, my Japanese writing class requires me to write a term paper. You know, one of those ten plus pages reports on something or another. That kind of concerns me since though I have a relatively developed Japanese vocabulary, I haven't had so much as written a grade school short story in Japanese before.

Naturally, the thought occurs to me to write a term paper on this topic, on where porn stars go to retire. I haven't cleared it with the teacher yet (I'm kinda dreading she'll strike me down, and also dreading that she won't and that I don't have the necessary Japanese proficiency to not make a total mess of it), but in the mean time some random searching on Google has turned up some interesting results.

- The size of porn industries over the world are notoriously hard to estimate, since the porn companies themselves don't like to give out figures and the average Fortune 500 company survey doesn't give them so much as the time of the day, I'm sure, but numbers I've pulled out of random places in the net (don't you just love a lack of citations?) suggest that the US porn industry is worth at *most* about US$1.8 billlon, whilst the Japanese porn industry is worth about US$20 billion. Apparently that figure is enough to make the Japanese porn industry the world's 60th largest economy, if it indeed were an independent nation.

-Money primarily does indeed seem to be the main reason why girls go into the industry at all, whether it's debt from compulsive brand-name shopping, lack of alternative skills, or just plain greed.

-Iijima Ai wrote a pretty famous autobiographical book in Japan titled Platonic Sex. In it she chronicles how she was gang-raped by friends on her 17th birthday, had parents that were more concerned about what the neighbors would think instead of the effect on her, and started working as a host in a sleazy club. Her wild brand-name shopping sprees lead her to be convinced by her manager to take up roles in porn movies, blablabla. What's interesting is that she seems to be a rare example of a personality who's actually managed to make a pretty clean break of her past, and nowadays she's actually a relatively well-established TV personality. The book was also successful enough that it was adapted to a TV series and movie.

Gawddemn it, there goes the Memoirs of a Porn Star book I wanted to write.

I'm going to go borrow Platonic Sex if I can find it in a rental store anytime soon. Hopefully I should be able to understand it without subtitles. ;p

Also: The chinese actress Vice Vecta is thinking about is probably Shu Qi - she's quite famous in the Chinese acting circles for having debuted as a soft-porn starlet, before going on to take "serious" art-house flicks and becoming a star.

Meh, I'm pretty sure you'll not find any decent studies/sources written in English. Any Western academic who writes about porn stars is almost sure to be some feminist patriarchy hatin' nazi. If you want studies to cite, you'd probably want to look into Sociology related journals originating in Japan. That's your best bet. Gogo online journal collections. Abuse your university's library priviledges.

But yah... without citations, your paper is going to be based on stereotypes, at the least and polemic, at best. Keep in mind that when relying on biographies/autobiographies, these books are almost definately written with an agenda in mind, whether its for public titillation or to gain public credibility by revealing half-truths, while hiding the less palatable facts.

"porn companies themselves don't like to give out figures"

Really? I thought dealing with figures was their job. Hur hur. </requisite one liner>

haha some interesting facts there PS. post more!

And I came across the movie Platonic Sex a while ago in a video store. The title made me think that is was another one of those movies that only used sex to sell, and the notion of platonic sex itself doesn't sit well with me, so i didnt borrow it.

Perfect Stranger wrote: the US porn industry is worth at *most* about US$1.8 billlon, whilst the Japanese porn industry is worth about US$20 billion. Apparently that figure is enough to make the Japanese porn industry the world's 60th largest economy, if it indeed were an independent nation.

Those figures are actually quite startling. It's hard to believe that the Japanese porn industry earns over ten times the amount of it's US equivalent - particularly in light of the way porn has entered (or come much closer to) the mainstream in the US. It's interesting that despite Japans seemingly reserved nature they apparently are wild for porn. I wonder if things are like that in the rest of the world - I'd like to see research on how a society's acceptance of sexuality effects their 'porn consumation'.

and PS - kudos for making an serious discussion thread

Those figures are actually quite startling. It's hard to believe that the Japanese porn industry earns over ten times the amount of it's US equivalent - particularly in light of the way porn has entered (or come much closer to) the mainstream in the US. It's interesting that despite Japans seemingly reserved nature they apparently are wild for porn. I wonder if things are like that in the rest of the world - I'd like to see research on how a society's acceptance of sexuality effects their 'porn consumation'.

and PS - kudos for making an serious discussion thread

Well, I do have a personal theory why porn is so popular in Japan. Japan is said to have a very repressed society. In other words, the more repressive the society, the more porn you get.

I do have more to say but I'll save it for later.

Apathy Wind wrote: 'porn consumation'.

do you mean consumption? or was that intended? XD

Kancho Assassin wrote:
Well, I do have a personal theory why porn is so popular in Japan. Japan is said to have a very repressed society. In other words, the more repressive the society, the more porn you get.

I do have more to say but I'll save it for later.

that is a very good theory. Western society is also very repressed sexually, relatively speaking, which would explain the massive porn industry in the US. I would like to know the size of Germany and Holland's porn industries.

I did a presentation on breasts, including the theory that uglier women have bigger breasts to compensate

I got 10/40 (fail)

I would leave porn alone if I were you (when it comes to academic studies at least).

Porn stars just run out of money and die because they are stupid.

The cleverer ones just continue the cycle and make porn movies using young stupid people who need money.

Anything published will almost certainly paint porn in a bad light. Don't bother using google for references, academics frown upon net sources big time. (of course they do, info is usually unfounded but also note the internet is bad for book sales)

Frankly if it were painted in a good light, we wouldn't find it as exciting.

Kancho Assassin wrote:In other words, the more repressive the society, the more porn you get.

I wouldn't agree there, though. China is by far more repressive and there's no pr0n floating around ehre, as I posted before, the sex industry is extremelly underground in these lands. Goverment controls a lot all these matters.

Keep it up, PS, the research sounds interesting yet you'll find some hardships as some people said, but if you need a hand, let us see what can i do to help with the matter.

And yeh, online sources are still a bit frowned for serious researches. Perhaps some field research? Interviews with sex industry people?