How does the Judgment System work????

Derrace · Post by **Derrace** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 17:06

bah, I lost to computer a few times (when timer goes to zero) even when I had like almost full hp and he had like so little..... and I wasn't even turtleling.....did pretty decent combos...WTH???

Tel · Post by **Tel** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 17:19

Against the CPU, you need a very dominant lead to win by timeout. Against the sub-bosses, it's virtually impossible to win by timeout. I was whupping Adel's butt and I was still losing the match by timeout, so got even more aggresive and got my last character KOed.

Against Magaki, it's very possible to win by timeout even by turtling though.

I don't know about CPU matches, but in VS matches, it's not purely about aggression. If you keep landing DMs or LDMs on your opponent, you'll tend to be more dominant even if you were actually losing the match. This is especially so if you KOed your opponent's characters using (L)DMs. Even if it was chipping damage. Yeah, the judgement system totally sucks.

~!T.T!~ · Post by **~!T.T!~** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 00:29

also if you kill one of your opponent's characters, judgement tips your way quite a bit and, of course, vice versa

AcidicEnema · Post by **AcidicEnema** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 15:12

Basically the judgement system works like the Death Match life bar from World Heroes 2, with a limited left and right side.

So basically, the person who wins, is the one who was doing the most damage/hits (i'm not sure which) before time ran out.

Basically this means that when time is running out and judgement is in your favour, you turtle.

If time is running out and judgement is in the opponent's favour, you try to hit him.

So even if you dominated the majority of the match, if towards the end, the opponent hits you with a few good combos, judgement could well turn in his favour.

Gemini83 · Post by **Gemini83** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 16:13

just to add on..

1)slam can cause quite a turn in the judement meter..
2) so does kiling off a character as well..

Tel · Post by **Tel** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 17:51

I don't know about VS matches, but during my match with Adel that I lost, he had less than 10% health left, while my two remaining characters had over 50% combined, but the judgement was still in his favour, and time was running out. I got hyper aggresive, and lost the match by KO instead.

BTW, Clark's Ultra Argentine Backbreaker does crap damage against Adel when his health is low. The entire thing did like 5% damage on him.

In VS matches, it's not always about landing combos. If possible, connect with DMs or especially LDMs. They can totally swing judgement in your favour. But seriously, I think they should drop this nonsense next year. If they want to punish turtlers, they could always rip a page from Guilty Gear and make players lose stock and build stock more slowly if they stay defensive for too long.

Slapper Joe · Post by **Slapper Joe** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 00:53

I don't know. Moments when time is counting down and the opponent starts to turtle because they are ahead on life (but behind on gauge) are memorable.

It also encourages you not to get characters KOed if you know the match is going to be tight/long. It is a pretty good setup if you ask me.

Blastrezz · Post by **Blastrezz** » Fri May 12, 2006 13:39

So 5 more months have passed.
How does Judgement turn out in general?

From all the matchvideos i've seen it doesn't always favor the right player....

Let's say the match is tending to run out (10-15 seconds to the end) and one player has the judgment indicator half way up his side. His opponent attacks like mad but it is most likely that he cannot get judgement to his side anymore. That's mostly when the favored player knows how to block the judgement indicator doesnt move a millimeter.

That's odd. Before the game was out I thought when you attack (no matter if your efforts are blocked or not) the indicator moves your way but then somewhen I realized judgement only moves your way when the attacks connect....

What do you think about that?

--Blast

AcidicEnema · Post by **AcidicEnema** » Fri May 12, 2006 23:00

I'm fine with it. The main difference imo between having judgement around and the old system, is that it makes comebacks a lot more viable, without making them too easy, since what matters is not who played the better match, but who played better in the last 10-20 seconds of play.

I also don't think its terribly hard to change judgement in the last 10-20 seconds of play, this being KOF and not Streetfighter- just 1 well-placed high-low game into combo is all it takes generally. Throws also tilt judgement quite a bit, which makes sense.

The one thing that pisses me off is that the judgement system allows for draw games (in XI this means both lose :razz:), which goes against the whole point of having a judgement system in the first place. How difficult would it have been for SNKP to make it such that there would be *no* yellow judgement once a first hit had been landed. Big thumbs down for that.

SonicWaver · Post by **SonicWaver** » Sun May 14, 2006 06:06

Blastrezz wrote:
That's odd. Before the game was out I thought when you attack (no matter if your efforts are blocked or not) the indicator moves your way but then somewhen I realized judgement only moves your way when the attacks connect....

What do you think about that?

--Blast

yeah, others here have prevoously posted here the same idea that u had, but ive seen that if the attacks do not connect the enemy, no judgement tension is gained...

u can Elizabeth LDM somebody, but if he defends, no judgement for anybody
simple as that

SonicWaver · Post by **SonicWaver** » Sun May 14, 2006 06:15

just a quick reply, important on its own

in the arcades ive tried, if the match ends and the judgement bars remains in the yellow color as the match finishes, both players automatically lose (at least, this happens in the arcadeÂ´s ive tried, i dont know if you can implement other configs on this system as well as with "no serve after continuing" or etc...)

Tel · Post by **Tel** » Sun May 14, 2006 13:47

Quite frankly, the judgement system works poorly IMHO. Far too often people lose matches in a close match simply because his opponent got in a DM/LDM in the last second, even if he was actually losing the match.

PenPen · Post by **PenPen** » Sun May 14, 2006 14:47

I'm more under the impression where my initial belief of the judgement meter has varying importances based on the timer speed.

So for example, if you're going against Gai as a midboss, the judgement meter goes totally against you with the fastest timer speed because every hit he makes tilts the thing by quite a lot. But every hit you make only tilts the thing back to you by a bit. And in the end, even if you have more life than him, you'll probably lose because the timer speed is so fast, and the judgement thingy is on his side. And you had to rush and try to KO him only after finding that your characters are getting owned even more.

A slower timer speed means that there's a lot more exchanges going on with the judgement bar thingy and it also means that it would have a lesser importance since matches are less likely to be decided by the meter because of time over.

I don't mean that the judgement meter should be taken away however, I just think that it's not completely finished. When someone's turtling because the lifebar and the meter are at his/her advantage the meter doesn't do anything to help balance that. Tick damage do nothing to the meter, which sucks. Or in XII they can do something like GGXX's penalty system to the meter when the other side is blocking way too much. Just wondering here.

SonicWaver · Post by **SonicWaver** » Mon May 15, 2006 08:06

PenPen wrote: So for example, if you're going against Gai as a midboss, the judgement meter goes totally against you

thats against almost any midboss/boss...and its dueto the factor that the CP only has 1 char while u have 3...its ok by me. (ive won against Gai and Jyazu by time out, its not that hard, just dont let them oftenly hit u)

I don't mean that the judgement meter should be taken away however, I just think that it's not completely finished. When someone's turtling because the lifebar and the meter are at his/her advantage the meter doesn't do anything to help balance that. Tick damage do nothing to the meter, which sucks. Or in XII they can do something like GGXX's penalty system to the meter when the other side is blocking way too much. Just wondering here.

well...JS its also ok here if u ask me, if someones turtling, its time to get more strategical....u know...apply pressure, try to grab him and most of all, guard crush meter!!!!!!

its ok if u ask me...

Iie-Kyo · Post by **Iie-Kyo** » Wed May 17, 2006 06:14

AcidicEnema wrote:I'm fine with it. The main difference imo between having judgement around and the old system, is that it makes comebacks a lot more viable, without making them too easy, since what matters is not who played the better match, but who played better in the last 10-20 seconds of play.

I disagree with this though. I think judgement should be just that, a system that judges how well you play overall. IMO this thing should be a cumulative total of how well you did for the entire match. If a player whips another player's ass by OCB (one character beatdown) -ing them to their final character, the judgement meter should reward the player for placing that beatdown, and thus giving the opposing player's third character even more of a burden to play harder.

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work that way - all the single character player has to do is land a couple of LDMs (and if they're whoring the top tiers, this kinda thing happens quite often) randomly throughout what remains of the match and voila, you got judgement on your side again.

I also don't think its terribly hard to change judgement in the last 10-20 seconds of play, this being KOF and not Streetfighter- just 1 well-placed high-low game into combo is all it takes generally. Throws also tilt judgement quite a bit, which makes sense.

That's the thing, I'm kinda worried about the system in its current state (which is probably going to be modified in the next KoF). The idea is great and it seems meant to keep people with judgement leads from running away, but right now it doesn't seem to be working that way. Too often have I seen people lose because a person GOT the judgement lead and ran away with the judgement, which I don't think is the original intent of the system. You're just running away winning by another factor instead of the lifebar.

Don't forget, the screen is HUEG LIEK XBOX right now, so it's pretty easy to turtle and run away in XI compared to the older KoFs. Characters (other than Gato) that have an "omg I'm there" move to catch you running away are rare now.

Well it really depends on which way you want to take it.

The one thing that pisses me off is that the judgement system allows for draw games (in XI this means both lose :razz:), which goes against the whole point of having a judgement system in the first place. How difficult would it have been for SNKP to make it such that there would be *no* yellow judgement once a first hit had been landed. Big thumbs down for that.

Having the thing on yellow at zero seconds is a rarity. I think it's just fine that both players get kicked, having a player be "rewarded" with the win for being the player originally on the machine with 1 win or more (2k3's style, for example) is equally as retarded IMO. I think they should just do a Final Round with both characters who participated in the Draw Game at 1/3rd life (if you happen to have a draw game with a character that's not a leader, IMO that's your fault for ending with no leader, right?) and have them fight it out there, just like 2k2. And if you SOMEHOW draw there, then kick both of you off - this has happened to me in 2k2 before.

Or, they should just give you a medal for getting yellow judgement in a competitive match in the first place. :LOL: